What Dolan & Shapiro have assembled...

[Swanny]

is a competitive but very average baseball team. Management has said that emphasis is going to be put on pitching. That is fine but someone should tell Shapiro that you need to score some runs to win ballgames. This lineup has the potential to be offensively anemic. The true sign that Dolan actually wants to win will be when Thome's contract is up. He might be willing to take a home town discount but that doesn't mean he will take 10 mill per from the Tribe instead of 15 somewhere else. If he jacks 50 this year teams will come calling. I can hardly wait to see how all the Dolan/Shapiro supporters will react if Jim Thome isn't resigned because of money. Let's face facts Tribe fans we are now just another mediocre team joining the ranks with other teams that have no chance of winning the World Series.

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[This message has been edited by Swanny (edited February 25, 2002).]

[truefan]

the issue could come down to who you'd rather have: Thome or Scott Rolen. They will both probably be seeking around the same dollars. Rolen is young, has power, and a good glove. While I don't know his exact stats, I've never seem him ragged on for being a "strike out king" like Thome often is.

I'll vote for going after Rolen. Then either re-sign Fryman for cheap money and put him at 1B. Or, move Branyan over there.

There's no way the tribe will have enough money to sign BOTH Rolen and Thome, is there???????

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[supersleuth]

Swanny, if they don't resign Thome, my reaction will depend completely on what they do instead. If they use the money to hire a younger player with a higher ceiling (Rolen might be a possible example), good for them. Sentimentality aside, it's not necessarily a good idea to tie up a lot of money in an aging slugger unless you have the kind of "stupid money" that the Yankee$ have.

But if they dump Thome just to cut payroll, you won't see many Dolan / Shapiro supporters anymore (or many fans at the Jake, either.) We "supporters" differ from you only in that we think it's too soon to jump to conclusions about where the franchise is going. If you turn out to be right, we'll be heading out the exit right behind you. But on current evidence I'm far from convinced that you're right.

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[tribejunkie]

I've been saying all off season and you can mark my words, If the Indians are not in playoff contention by the trading deadline, Jim Thome will be moved to a team in need of power for thier playoff run. Ala fred McGriff last year. If they are in playoff contention and decide to keep him, it will be easy to re-sign him next year due to the other players that have expiring contracts. Travis Fryman,Chuck Finley and Carlie Nagy.

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[playball]

First of all, doesn't Thome have a no trade clause, meaning he'd have to approve a trade? So the Indians couldn't move him without his permission. Second, since when is a player "ageing" at 31? Does that mean Bonds belongs in a retirement home? There won't be many butts in the seats (the Indians ultimate goal, as we all know..$$$) if they don't resign Thome. If they supposedly don't have the money to sign him, what would make you think they could sign him and Rolen? They probably won't sign either. Welcome back to the 70's. I hear Dolan has a "thing" against paying power hitters big money...he thinks it should go to the pitchers.

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[Hawaii007]

The Thome situation will be very interesting ot say the least. I don't think that the team will end up going above 10 million a year. Personally, if Thome is not willing to take 10 million a year for 6-7 years then that is fine. Of course it is less then what he could get on the open market, but in the bigger scheme of things, is it really worth it? Looks like Manny has been finding out that it isn't.

If Thome is resigned, then Branyan moves into the 3B and Fryman is gone. They definitely will not resign Fryman. I am one of those guys that would love to see some of the players last their entire career with the Indians, but the direction the team is going, they have to let players go.

If you think about the club for 2003, it is pretty interesting. An outfield of Escobar Bradley and Lawton. Infield of either Branyan, Omar, Ricky, Thome OR Rolen, Omar, Ricky, and branyan/Snyder. Burks as DH for his last year and Diaz/Martinez/Bard behind the plate. Then the pitching staff. Bullpen is pretty much the same, maybe different lefties. Starters will have probably Drew, Traber, or Westbrook instead of finley.

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[supersleuth]

playball- think in terms of age at end of (fat, multiyear) contract.

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[the teacher]

Thome's salary potential is limited due to his continued inability to hit left handed pitching. Against lefties in 2001, he hit .232 with 4 HR's. You don't pay super megabucks for a guy that's essentially a platoon player (just megabucks perhaps). He's a major reason why the Tribe sucked so badly against "crafty southpaws".

Giambi is so valuable because he hits everybody: .333 vs. lefties, .347 vs. righties.

BTW, isn't Mike Sweeny a FA in 2003?

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Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est

[Swanny]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by supersleuth:
Swanny, if they don't resign Thome, my reaction will depend completely on what they do instead. If they use the money to hire a younger player with a higher ceiling (Rolen might be a possible example), good for them. Sentimentality aside, it's not necessarily a good idea to tie up a lot of money in an aging slugger unless you have the kind of "stupid money" that the Yankee$ have.

But if they dump Thome just to cut payroll, you won't see many Dolan / Shapiro supporters anymore (or many fans at the Jake, either.) We "supporters" differ from you only in that we think it's too soon to jump to conclusions about where the franchise is going. If you turn out to be right, we'll be heading out the exit right behind you. But on current evidence I'm far from convinced that you're right.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pretty good post supersleuth!


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[srg]

I love how Swanny likes to spend other peoples money. If Thome insists on 15 mill or more than goodbye.Dolan is cheap because he won't deficit spend or give the moon to one player?

------------------Here is a link from todays ABJ that puts things in perspective:

Posted on Tue, Feb. 26, 2002

Shapiro's plan depends on young hurlers
By Terry Pluto

WINTER HAVEN, FLA. - Mark Shapiro is no fool... and he doesn't think you're one, either.

He's not trying to tell you the Indians have more talent than a year ago, or that a trip to the World Series is in the near future.

``I'd like to have a star at every position, but we can't,'' the Tribe GM said. ``If you can't have a perfect team, then how can you win? That was the question we faced this winter.''

Because of Owner Larry Dolan's cost-saving measures, the Indians sliced the payroll from $92 million to $82 million. They'd like to bring it to less than $80 million. But the Indians also remain the biggest spenders in the AL Central, and among the game's top 10.

Shapiro has spent all winter talking about ``energy,'' about a team that ``plays together,'' a team with ``character.'' Some fans believe this is just a smoke screen to cover up the team's holes and keep season-ticket holders from bolting.

But Shapiro does believe these things. He was offended by the way the Tribe has sometimes played in the recent past, winning yet seemingly bored by it, playing disinterested, sloppy baseball.

``And remember, we won 91 games, not 111 games last year,'' he said. ``I want guys who take some joy in the game, and not just slapping a teammate on the butt for the TV cameras.''

The Indians haven't been to the World Series since 1997. They haven't won a playoff series since 1998. On last year's team, Einar Diaz was the only regular younger than 30, and C.C. Sabathia and Bartolo Colon were the only reliable starting pitchers.

They have been getting older, not better.

``No matter (what the budget), a transition was coming,'' Shapiro said.

Because so much of the Tribe's revenues are based on ticket sales, the Indians can't afford a dismal season to just play youngsters and rebuild. They also didn't have the budget to keep Juan Gonzalez. And no matter what the Tribe says, dollars were part of the reason for the Robbie Alomar deal -- as they knew the All-Star second baseman would want a contract extension.

Shapiro is trying to rebuild the farm system, break in some young players at the major-league level -- and still make the playoffs. He acquired some veterans such as Ricky Gutierrez and Matt Lawton to keep the team competitive. Their salaries are a little softer on the budget.

The most recent team that built a winner this way was Seattle, so that's the model.

As veteran reliever Bob Wickman said, ``Last year, everyone was saying the same thing about the Mariners they now say about us. In a couple of years, they lost Ken Griffey, they lost Randy Johnson, they lost Alex Rodriguez. How could they win after that?''

They won 116 games, losing to the Yankees in the AL Championship Series.

``Seattle was a fun team to watch,'' Tribe manager Charlie Manuel said. ``I want us to play like that.''

In the meeting, where it was determined that Manuel would return as manager, Shapiro told him that he'd be held responsible for the team's attitude and intensity. Shapiro challenged the manager to have the team play with more of a sense of purpose and unity.

``This is my first year as GM, and it is my chance to put a stamp on a team,'' he said. ``If I'm going to lose, I want to lose with guys whom I respect so I can at least sleep at night.''

Third baseman Travis Fryman talks about this team's ``quiet determination.'' He insists that they'll win, just do it a little differently. That's Shapiro's strategy, and most of the remaining Tribe veterans seem to sincerely buy into it.

But talent does rule in baseball, which remains a highly individualistic game. The essence is the one-on-one duel between the pitcher and batter. So much of the Tribe's plans depend more on their young pitching than any sort of attitude adjustment.

And that's really the key to season.




[This message has been edited by srg (edited February 26, 2002).]